Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Francisco Diaz Trepat - gmail
Giorgos thanks for your reply, I'm stll reading some of the links and it looks like a long road ahead. Don't know if I want to become an expert on the matter but as a curious guy + geeky+programmer I am force to read them all jajaja.
 
f(t)

 
On 7/8/07, Giorgos Keramidas <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2007-07-07 14:39, Francisco Diaz Trepat - gmail <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello guys, I am trying to learn / pick one version control system
> to use in the company that I work for, where they currently use
> svn. And for my personal projects as well.  I saw the conference
> video on google on mercurial and I pretty much like it right
> away. But some guy I respect a bit told me take a look at monotone
> and darcs as well.
>
> If anyone is familiar with this systems could you give me some
> comments on them vs. mercurial.
>
> Mercurial
> Monotone
> Darcs

If you are interested in a comparison of SCM systems, I think it may
help a bit to start with the following reading material:

   http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html

Two more useful documents, with interesting ideas about SCM systems,
and a lot of links/references to even more material, are:

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_revision_control_software
   http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/scm.html

It is nearly impossible to write in a single email reply all the
interesting bits about all the SCM systems out there, so feel free to
read through the links above, and their second-level links, and the
third level, and so on.

Then experiment with the three systems you want to familiarize
yourself with.  Try keeping some of your files in an Hg workspace.
Try committing, sharing and moving stuff around a Monotone repository.
Play around with Darcs a bit.

There's no substitute for really _doing_ something, when it comes to
getting experience with SCM systems.



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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Francisco Diaz Trepat - gmail
I'll check this out.
 
Boy, never a list had gave me so much homework before. :-)
 
thanks guys,
 
f(t)

 
On 7/8/07, Marcin Kasperski <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello guys, I am trying to learn / pick one version control system to
> use in the company that I work for, where they currently use svn. And
> for my personal projects as well.
Well, it need not always be case. Company and personal needs can differ,
for example.

>
> I saw the conference video on google on mercurial and I pretty much
> like it right away. But some guy I respect a bit told me take a look
> at monotone and darcs as well.
If you mean distributed VC, add also git, bazaar-ng and svk to the list.
And maybe sth else ;-)

The good news is that the conversion tools are fairly good and
improving, so you can try one tool and migrate to the another one later.


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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Mirza Hadzic
My feeling is that Mercurial and git are becoming two mainstream
options, Mercurial for multi-platform and Git for Linux-only projects.
Linus noted this as well in his google-video git presentation.

Mirza

Francisco Diaz Trepat - gmail wrote:

> I'll check this out.
>  
> Boy, never a list had gave me so much homework before. :-)
>  
> thanks guys,
>  
> f(t)
>
>  
> On 7/8/07, *Marcin Kasperski* <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>      > Hello guys, I am trying to learn / pick one version control system to
>      > use in the company that I work for, where they currently use svn.
>     And
>      > for my personal projects as well.
>     Well, it need not always be case. Company and personal needs can differ,
>     for example.
>
>      >
>      > I saw the conference video on google on mercurial and I pretty much
>      > like it right away. But some guy I respect a bit told me take a look
>      > at monotone and darcs as well.
>     If you mean distributed VC, add also git, bazaar-ng and svk to the list.
>     And maybe sth else ;-)
>
>     The good news is that the conversion tools are fairly good and
>     improving, so you can try one tool and migrate to the another one later.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mercurial mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://selenic.com/mailman/listinfo/mercurial

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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

tytso
On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 05:09:47PM +0200, Mirza Hadzic wrote:
> My feeling is that Mercurial and git are becoming two mainstream
> options, Mercurial for multi-platform and Git for Linux-only projects.
> Linus noted this as well in his google-video git presentation.

That may be somewhat true today (although Git works just fine on other
pretty much everything except windows -- MacOS, Unix systems, etc.; so
the issue is that projects who need native Windows support tend to
chose Hg).  However, as they say, the only thing which is constant is
change....

There is work to add 1st class Windows support to git, and the bzr
developers are working to make their system faster, and the hg folks
have been busy adding better branch support, etc.  And while once a
project picks a SCM, it does take effort to switch SCM's, however
these days the tools to import and export repositories from one tool
to another are pretty good, so it's not that hard to do.

So what people pick may change 6-9 months from now, but that's always
true.  

                     - Ted
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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Francisco Diaz Trepat - gmail
In reply to this post by Mirza Hadzic
Right.
 
As I heard about monotone and other from good sources I wanted to know from people in the mercurial list.

 
On 7/10/07, Mirza Hadzic <[hidden email]> wrote:
My feeling is that Mercurial and git are becoming two mainstream
options, Mercurial for multi-platform and Git for Linux-only projects.
Linus noted this as well in his google-video git presentation.

Mirza

Francisco Diaz Trepat - gmail wrote:

> I'll check this out.
>
> Boy, never a list had gave me so much homework before. :-)
>
> thanks guys,
>
> f(t)
>
>
> On 7/8/07, *Marcin Kasperski* <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>      > Hello guys, I am trying to learn / pick one version control system to
>      > use in the company that I work for, where they currently use svn.
>     And
>      > for my personal projects as well.
>     Well, it need not always be case. Company and personal needs can differ,
>     for example.
>
>      >
>      > I saw the conference video on google on mercurial and I pretty much
>      > like it right away. But some guy I respect a bit told me take a look
>      > at monotone and darcs as well.
>     If you mean distributed VC, add also git, bazaar-ng and svk to the list.
>     And maybe sth else ;-)
>
>     The good news is that the conversion tools are fairly good and
>     improving, so you can try one tool and migrate to the another one later.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mercurial mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://selenic.com/mailman/listinfo/mercurial

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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

David Frey-2
In reply to this post by tytso
On 7/10/2007, "Theodore Tso" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>And while once a project picks a SCM, it does take effort to switch
>SCM's, however these days the tools to import and export repositories
>from one tool to another are pretty good, so it's not that hard to do.
>
>So what people pick may change 6-9 months from now, but that's always
>true.
>
>                    - Ted

I think that the technical challenge of switching SCM systems is
insignificant when compared to the bitching and moaning you will get
when you tell people that they have to learn a new tool.

David

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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Francisco Diaz Trepat - gmail
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
TRUE
 
that I would need a new logical term.
 
f(t)
 
PS: I have someone here that says that noone has anything to say about CVS. what would the proper response would be?
 
jaja

 
On 7/10/07, David Frey <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 7/10/2007, "Theodore Tso" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>And while once a project picks a SCM, it does take effort to switch
>SCM's, however these days the tools to import and export repositories
>from one tool to another are pretty good, so it's not that hard to do.
>
>So what people pick may change 6-9 months from now, but that's always
>true.
>
>                                           - Ted

I think that the technical challenge of switching SCM systems is
insignificant when compared to the bitching and moaning you will get
when you tell people that they have to learn a new tool.

David

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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

TK Soh
In reply to this post by tytso
On 7/11/07, Theodore Tso <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 05:09:47PM +0200, Mirza Hadzic wrote:
> > My feeling is that Mercurial and git are becoming two mainstream
> > options, Mercurial for multi-platform and Git for Linux-only projects.
> > Linus noted this as well in his google-video git presentation.
>
> That may be somewhat true today (although Git works just fine on other
> pretty much everything except windows -- MacOS, Unix systems, etc.; so
> the issue is that projects who need native Windows support tend to
> chose Hg).  However, as they say, the only thing which is constant is
> change....
>
> There is work to add 1st class Windows support to git, and the bzr
> developers are working to make their system faster, and the hg folks
> have been busy adding better branch support, etc.  And while once a
> project picks a SCM, it does take effort to switch SCM's, however
> these days the tools to import and export repositories from one tool
> to another are pretty good, so it's not that hard to do.
>
> So what people pick may change 6-9 months from now, but that's always
> true.

Mercurial support on Windows is hardly first class. Even with 0.9.4,
it still doesn't run 'out-of-the-box'. Hopefully something can be done
before the 6-9 months period runs out.
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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Lee Cantey-2
On 7/10/07, TK Soh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Mercurial support on Windows is hardly first class. Even with 0.9.4,
> it still doesn't run 'out-of-the-box'. Hopefully something can be done
> before the 6-9 months period runs out.

The only area that I know of that's really an issue is the lack of a
default merge.  I'm planning on supporting at least simplemerge out of
the box and possibly an hgmerge equivalent that looks for known
workable merge programs.

Regards,
Lee
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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Thomas Lauer-3
In reply to this post by TK Soh
"TK Soh" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Mercurial support on Windows is hardly first class. Even with 0.9.4,
> it still doesn't run 'out-of-the-box'. Hopefully something can be done
> before the 6-9 months period runs out.

Hm... I may be missing some 1st class elements that exist under other
OSes, but for me installing Mercurial (0.9.3 as well as 0.9.4) on a
couple of Win2k boxes was simplicity itself.

I already had a recent ActiveState Python and the MS SDK. So I set a few
environment variables (that's one area which could be made a bit
clearer), ran setup and that was that. (In fact, it was all over so
quickly that I was sure the install had misfired. But no, all was well.)

So compared to a few other VC systems I've played with it was very much
'out-of-the-box'.

(Okay, there could be some sort of batch for hgmerge. But this is
trivial to do once hg is up and running.)

--
cheers  thomasl

web : http://thomaslauer.com/start

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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Marcin Kasperski
In reply to this post by Francisco Diaz Trepat - gmail
> PS: I have someone here that says that noone has anything to
> say about CVS. what would the proper response would be?

Well, when programmers are discussing whether to use C++, Java,
C#, or maybe Python, or even Perl, for some reason they are not
mentioning COBOL.

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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Patrick Mezard
In reply to this post by Lee Cantey-2
Lee Cantey a écrit :
> On 7/10/07, TK Soh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Mercurial support on Windows is hardly first class. Even with 0.9.4,
>> it still doesn't run 'out-of-the-box'. Hopefully something can be done
>> before the 6-9 months period runs out.
>
> The only area that I know of that's really an issue is the lack of a
> default merge.  I'm planning on supporting at least simplemerge out of
> the box and possibly an hgmerge equivalent that looks for known
> workable merge programs.

I would add the issues related to Windows text mode streams, like piping
diff or export or archive outputs. And filename case collision handling
can sometimes be a real pain but it is being worked on.

--
Patrick Mézard
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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Kevin Greiner

On 7/11/07, Patrick Mézard <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would add the issues related to Windows text mode streams, like piping
diff or export or archive outputs.

I'm a  Windows user and new here. Can you clarify these issues related to streams or point me in the right direction? Most of the stuff I found in the mailing list archives is related to supplying a default merge program.

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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Patrick Mezard
Kevin Greiner a écrit :

>
> On 7/11/07, *Patrick Mézard* <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>     I would add the issues related to Windows text mode streams, like piping
>     diff or export or archive outputs.
>
>
> I'm a  Windows user and new here. Can you clarify these issues related
> to streams or point me in the right direction? Most of the stuff I found
> in the mailing list archives is related to supplying a default merge
> program.

See the "urgent" http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/bts/issue250 for
instance. Windows streams operate in text mode by default which makes
them to replace LF by CRLF sequences and break outputs which cannot be
changed that way like tar/gzip streams or diffs. This problem is really
annoying with diff because there is no way to write them to files
directly as opposed to export and archive.

I will probably try to switch all streams to binary mode at hg startup,
unconditionnaly and fix anything which needs fixing from there. At least
the situation will be similar to non-windows streams.

--
Patrick Mézard
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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Francisco Diaz Trepat - gmail
In reply to this post by Marcin Kasperski
Great response.

On 7/11/07, Marcin Kasperski <[hidden email]> wrote:
> PS: I have someone here that says that noone has anything to
> say about CVS. what would the proper response would be?

Well, when programmers are discussing whether to use C++, Java,
C#, or maybe Python, or even Perl, for some reason they are not
mentioning COBOL.



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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

TK Soh
In reply to this post by Thomas Lauer-3
On 7/11/07, Thomas Lauer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> "TK Soh" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Mercurial support on Windows is hardly first class. Even with 0.9.4,
> > it still doesn't run 'out-of-the-box'. Hopefully something can be done
> > before the 6-9 months period runs out.
>
> Hm... I may be missing some 1st class elements that exist under other
> OSes, but for me installing Mercurial (0.9.3 as well as 0.9.4) on a
> couple of Win2k boxes was simplicity itself.
>
> I already had a recent ActiveState Python and the MS SDK. So I set a few
> environment variables (that's one area which could be made a bit
> clearer), ran setup and that was that. (In fact, it was all over so
> quickly that I was sure the install had misfired. But no, all was well.)
>
> So compared to a few other VC systems I've played with it was very much
> 'out-of-the-box'.

Being distributed, merging should be an integral part of Mercurial.
Out of the box, Mercurial simply won't merge on Win32, unless your
'merging' doesn't involve the same files. In any case, Lee Cantey's
plan to bundle simplemerge in his binary pacakges would help a great
deal.
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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Bela Babik
In reply to this post by Patrick Mezard
> diff or export or archive outputs. And filename case collision handling
> can sometimes be a real pain but it is being worked on.

Just met with it, really scaring.
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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Francisco Diaz Trepat - gmail
For all that I seen, IMHO I think is not nearly enough to have a good performance and great technology and algorithms implementation. If the SCM does not integrate well with windows and IDE applications its success is compromised. Although not every one is for set for a world wide success. I see great things in these distributed scm but without good integration with IDEs and windows my hands are somewhat tide.
 
Although I've Mac OSX at home and kubuntu. I need to look for a scm to use at my company which uses windows, eclipse, netbeans, etc.
 
my2cents,
f(t)

 
On 7/12/07, Bela Babik <[hidden email]> wrote:
> diff or export or archive outputs. And filename case collision handling
> can sometimes be a real pain but it is being worked on.

Just met with it, really scaring.
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Re: Mercurial Vs. Monotone & Darcs

Marcin Kasperski

> Although I've Mac OSX at home and kubuntu. I need to look for
> a scm to use at my company which uses windows, eclipse,
> netbeans, etc.

http://www.vectrace.com/mercurialeclipse/

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